Are the ship sizes accurate?

[Lonious]

Not sure if this is an appropriate question here, but if it is, would you know how realistic the ships' sizes are in comparison to their real life counterparts?

I remember being astonished at how so damn maaassive the Manowar was. The galleon was no joke either. I thought they were kind of oversized.

When I tried to scale them from the crew though, they looked to be roughly accurate. I think the galleon's hull was about 144 ft., making the manowar (the biggest in the game) around 190 ft. (excluding the bowsprit).

What seems to be the case is, all other ships smaller than the battleship and galleon (that is, even frigates and corvettes) seem to be downsized, or at least on the lower end (?) of the historical size ranges for them. For instance, the ingame Brig is roughly 28% the size of the Manowar, making it about 70 ft. long (wikipedia states brigs were around 75-165 ft. long).

Are the smaller ships too small for real life, the bigger ships too big, or are they realistic?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Honestly, I don't dare vouch for the correct scales.
I wouldn't be surprised if they're off here and there.
Especially amongst the original game ships.

I seem to recall the mod-added "Bermuda Sloop" is also quite a bit bigger than she should really be...

 

[Grey Roger]

From what I've found by looking at ship models in GM Viewer, it's the smaller ships which are likely to be inaccurate, and they're too big, not too small. The Bermuda Sloop is an extreme example, but some other small ships are oversized compared to galleons, frigates etc.

 

[Lonious]

From what I've found by looking at ship models in GM Viewer, it's the smaller ships which are likely to be inaccurate, and they're too big, not too small. The Bermuda Sloop is an extreme example, but some other small ships are oversized compared to galleons, frigates etc.

I assume you're referring to the modded game? What about the stock game? I was always suspicious about how tiny frigates and brigs were compared to the battleship and manowar.

Here, the manowar (hull only) is roughly 2x the length of the brig in front (with bowsprit). Scaling from the crew, the manowar was roughly 190 ft. (hull only) making the brig approx. 95 ft. (with bowsprit). Would this be an accurate figure for both real-life ships?

I take it the battleship and manowar roughly correspond to 3rd and 1st rate ships of the line, respectively, right?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I take it the battleship and manowar roughly correspond to 3rd and 1st rate ships of the line, respectively, right?

I think that's what we renamed them to in New Horizons, yes.

 

[Grey Roger]

The original battleship still shows up as "3rd Rate Battleship", but the original man o' war shows up as "1st Rate Ship of the Line".

Looking at one of the "manowar" models in GM viewer and counting grid squares, it does seem a bit oversized compared to the stock battleship, or for that matter, NH's more realistic 1st rate ships such as HMS Victory or Soleil Royal. I suspect the idea was that you'd be pleased with yourself after defeating and probably capturing Silehard's ships at Greenford after one of your sailors had practically quaked in his boots while reporting their approach. Then you'd get to Khael Roa, see this huge monster, and you'd be the one quaking in your boots. That thing was capable of sinking the stock Black Pearl without using Danielle's glowing thing.

 

[The Nameless Pirate]

Looking at one of the "manowar" models in GM viewer and counting grid squares, it does seem a bit oversized compared to the stock battleship, or for that matter, NH's more realistic 1st rate ships such as HMS Victory or Soleil Royal. I suspect the idea was that you'd be pleased with yourself after defeating and probably capturing Silehard's ships at Greenford after one of your sailors had practically quaked in his boots while reporting their approach. Then you'd get to Khael Roa, see this huge monster, and you'd be the one quaking in your boots. That thing was capable of sinking the stock Black Pearl without using Danielle's glowing thing.

Indeed. Ah the memories.
I remember sinking the Black Pearl without the "magic", as I remember trying to board her.
After some time the real battle was to not have the game crash during the battle as my original Xbox DVD drive was on it's way out.
(I also suspect that deleting the options file would have helped. But I didn't know that back then.)

Anyway, if the goal was to transfer that to you through her shear size, I must say it worked.

 

[Grey Roger]

I assume you're referring to the modded game? What about the stock game? I was always suspicious about how tiny frigates and brigs were compared to the battleship and manowar.

Most of the stock game ships are in the modded game too, including the brig, galleon, battleship (both styles from the stock game) and man o' war.

Here, the manowar (hull only) is roughly 2x the length of the brig in front (with bowsprit). Scaling from the crew, the manowar was roughly 190 ft. (hull only) making the brig approx. 95 ft. (with bowsprit). Would this be an accurate figure for both real-life ships?

The real HMS Victory is 186' along the gundeck. As for brigs, that's a generic term covering a whole range of two-masted ships, all of them smaller than a battleship or man o'war. 95' total is certainly in the range of sizes of a brig.

Frigates were also smaller than ships of the line. For that reason, they were more active. Ships of the line tended to stay in port unless needed for a big engagement because supplying them for a sea voyage was expensive. Sending a frigate out on patrols or showing the flag was cheaper than sending a ship of the line.

 

[Lonious]

Most of the stock game ships are in the modded game too, including the brig, galleon, battleship (both styles from the stock game) and man o' war.

Were the model sizes the same in the mods? Sorry, I haven't played the build mods in quite a while.

The real HMS Victory is 186' along the gundeck. As for brigs, that's a generic term covering a whole range of two-masted ships, all of them smaller than a battleship or man o'war. 95' total is certainly in the range of sizes of a brig.

So maybe the stock ship sizes were accurate after all, and ships of the line were really that big.

The brig is on the smaller side, the frigate is not the USS Constitution, and so forth.

For that matter, after scaling up from the crew, I found out that galleons were roughly 144 ft. battleships are 180 ft. the manowar is 190 ft., hulls only. Which does seem to correspond to the real-life figures (though Manila galleons may have been significantly larger).

Frigates were also smaller than ships of the line. For that reason, they were more active. Ships of the line tended to stay in port unless needed for a big engagement because supplying them for a sea voyage was expensive. Sending a frigate out on patrols or showing the flag was cheaper than sending a ship of the line.

So maybe the stock game's generous use of battleships for almost every encounter after Level 10 isn't consistent with history. Did these ships regularly cruise the Caribbean in the 1600's?

The original battleship still shows up as "3rd Rate Battleship", but the original man o' war shows up as "1st Rate Ship of the Line".

I suppose the developers thought simply calling them "Battleship" and "Manowar" sounded cooler.

I suspect the idea was that you'd be pleased with yourself after defeating and probably capturing Silehard's ships at Greenford after one of your sailors had practically quaked in his boots while reporting their approach. Then you'd get to Khael Roa, see this huge monster, and you'd be the one quaking in your boots. That thing was capable of sinking the stock Black Pearl without using Danielle's glowing thing.

You sank the Pearl with the manowar alone? I'd been meaning to try that, actually.

 

[Grey Roger]

Were the model sizes the same in the mods? Sorry, I haven't played the build mods in quite a while.

Yes, if a stock ship model is retained in the mod then it will be the same model. Altering the base hull model is liable to wreck the model, so changing size wouldn't work even if we wanted to. What can be done is to retexture the model and add locators, which means add-on model components for extra details, and also better rigging.

So maybe the stock game's generous use of battleships for almost every encounter after Level 10 isn't consistent with history. Did these ships regularly cruise the Caribbean in the 1600's?

Possibly if there was some significant action. Most cruising was done by frigates, and when they were on such missions, they were referred to as "cruising ships". In time this was shortened to "cruiser", and cruisers of WW1 and WW2 were the equivalent of frigates from the age of sail.

But in the game, once you're level 10 and probably have a battleship of your own, and bearing in mind that the stock game's sailing mechanism is not all that accurate so that battleships aren't as clumsy, frigates are no longer much of a challenge. Gameplay presumably took precedence over realism.

I suppose the developers thought simply calling them "Battleship" and "Manowar" sounded cooler.

"Battleship" is inaccurate for the time but "Man of war" is accurate. One possible derivation is that heavily armed soldiers were called "men of war", so a ship carrying lots of them was called a "man of war ship", subsequently shortened to "man of war" as "ship" in the context of a ship description was redundant. Ships of the line could also be called "line of battle ships", which was later shortened to "battle ships", and ultimately to "battleships", though the single word term was not used during the age of sail.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Most of the stock game ships are in the modded game too, including the brig, galleon, battleship (both styles from the stock game) and man o' war.

Pretty sure we never removed ANY stock game ships.

Were the model sizes the same in the mods? Sorry, I haven't played the build mods in quite a while.

We never changed the scales of any of the ships; so whatever size they had in the original game, they'll still have the same size now.

So maybe the stock game's generous use of battleships for almost every encounter after Level 10 isn't consistent with history. Did these ships regularly cruise the Caribbean in the 1600's?

In the stock game, ship encounter size was tied to your own level.
That's got nothing to do with realism and is indeed one of the things we changed in the Build Mod.
You can still switch to the old system, but now the bigger ships are FAR rarer.

Pretty sure there weren't a whole lot of Ships of the Line in the Caribbean.
I'd expect galleons, frigates, schooners, that sort of stuff.
But the biggest of the big, like Trafalgar style, I believe those stuck mostly to Europe...

 

[Grey Roger]

Pretty sure we never removed ANY stock game ships.

Frigates.

Pretty sure there weren't a whole lot of Ships of the Line in the Caribbean.
I'd expect galleons, frigates, schooners, that sort of stuff.
But the biggest of the big, like Trafalgar style, I believe those stuck mostly to Europe...

So did xebecs and polaccas, which didn't stop the stock game from having the former and the mod from having the latter. For the big 1st rate ships, it's probably another case where gameplay takes precedence over absolute realism - the game would be rather duller without them. (Though there might be a case for removing them from general circulation and only using them for quests. Silehard's flagship, the Couronne in "Assassin" and the Dauphin Royal in "Ardent" look less special when you can find the same types of ships in random fleets.)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Frigates.

True.
They were replaced by @Armada's improved model, which is still very much based on the stock game ship, but much more detailed and historically accurate.

So did xebecs and polaccas, which didn't stop the stock game from having the former and the mod from having the latter.

Hey, I'm not complaining!
I'm all for variety.

For the big 1st rate ships, it's probably another case where gameplay takes precedence over absolute realism - the game would be rather duller without them.

Exactly right.

Though there might be a case for removing them from general circulation and only using them for quests. Silehard's flagship, the Couronne in "Assassin" and the Dauphin Royal in "Ardent" look less special when you can find the same types of ships in random fleets.

Those ships are still pretty rare though; right?

I wonder how many people would play those storylines specifically.
Limiting content does make it more unique; but limiting too much makes good content nearly invisible for players...

Tough choices.

 

[Lonious]

BUMP: I've again measured the Manowar's hull, which looks to be almost 350 feet long scaling from the men onboard.

Now, it seems to represent a first-rate, and as i understand it the New Horizons mods have a more accurate-looking first-rate. Since the manowar was kept as a separate ship type, how much is the size disparity? Because being 300+ feet long is a whole other league to actual historical first-rates.

Or am I off with my measurements?

Is there any way a model's length/width/height can be identified in the GM Viewer?

 

[Lonious]

So, It seems that the Manowar is indeed an absurdly large 300+ feet long according to Blender. Yet it has only 100 guns despite dwarfing the HMS Victory by a vast margin. Incidentally, the Pearl is also somewhat larger, being 186' to the film's 165...

(The Manowar as compared to the HMS Victory)

Dammit. I knew something was off with that giant ship.