Solved Updating the Worldmap

[Pieter Boelen]

Does anyone have any thoughts on swapping around Bonaire and Curacao in the game? They're the other way around in real life.
How much of a priority is that?

And here's a fun thing I'll be wanting to do at some point: When you find an albatross in a chest, you just plain cannot get rid of it!
Not even if you don't take it out of the chest. Because then you'll find it somehow managed to follow you into your inventory anyway.
That'd actually put a point to that Easter Egg!
(Yes, I have been feeling a bit evil lately! But there IS a way to get rid of it. There already is now. Does anyone know it? )

 

[Talisman]

Does anyone have any thoughts on swapping around Bonaire and Curacao in the game? They're the other way around in real life.
How much of a priority is that?

Would this cause problems in the Bartolomeu quest ( A strange Statuette)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

If done correctly, everything will remain working as-is, but with the names swapped.
So any quest stuff that now happens on Bonaire will stay there, but it'll be called Curacao instead and the other way around.
Whether that makes sense is a different story.

I'm not about to do this any time soon though, but since it's wrong, I figured we might want to address it some time.
Was wondering how much other people care about this discrepancy though.

 

[Hylie Pistof]

I do not like that albatross and never pick it up. Methinks I figured out how to get rid of it years ago but have since forgotten.

Exchange Curacao and Bonaire? That is a lot of name changing and some will be missed, so there will be errors galore for a while. It's too bad they couldn't be moved around on the map.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I do not like that albatross and never pick it up. Methinks I figured out how to get rid of it years ago but have since forgotten.

Why would ANYONE like the albatross? It is a deliberately evil thing. But not evil enough, because you can just leave it there.

Exchange Curacao and Bonaire? That is a lot of name changing and some will be missed, so there will be errors galore for a while. It's too bad they couldn't be moved around on the map.

A lot of the naming is period-dependent anyway and handled through preprocessors. That means that ANY instance of, say, "Bonaire" is being replaced by "Isla do Palo Brasil" in Early Explorers.
That same system should help us a bit on this.

Indeed moving them around on the worldmap won't work. Changing Bonaire into Curacao will be easy, because that is "Douwesen" in "code reality" anyway.
But Curacao will need renaming to Bonaire everywhere. Perhaps it could simply be handled by preprocessors only, but that is going to be VERY confusing when people look at the code.
Because then Curacao would remain named Curacao in the code and the name change to "Bonaire" would occur only just before the text shows up on your screen.

 

[Armada]

Indeed moving them around on the worldmap won't work

Why wouldn't it work? We'd surely only need to move the islands on the world map model in Maya, and then change the coordinates of the islands in-game?
(And make changes to the archipelago maps, but that's easy.)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Let me put it this way: Technically it could indeed work. But nobody at PiratesAhoy! ever changed the worldmap; we only ever took modified GM files from the Russian mods.
If you can do it, that might indeed be a better way. Changing the maps might be a bit annoying though.

And changing the worldmap coordinates is DEFINITELY annoying. I ran into that when trying to set up the "X Marks the Spot" for the Treasure Quests.
Lots of shores aren't set up correctly or are not even set up at all in the worldmap code.
Which was too bad, because I had wanted to generate the "X Marks the Spot" automatically from those.
Now I had to resort to doing it a "stupid" way that bypasses it all and just directly plots an X wherever I tell it to plot.

 

[Armada]

Let me put it this way: Technically it could indeed work. But nobody at PiratesAhoy! ever changed the worldmap; we only ever took modified GM files from the Russian mods.
If you can do it, that might indeed be a better way. Changing the maps might be a bit annoying though.

Moving the islands around in Maya would be easy. I did actually check the world map GM's polycount, which is too high for a clean OBJ export from GM Viewer, BUT I managed to split the model up via TOOL into parts that rather neatly contain less than 50,000 polys each, so luckily we're not restricted by stupid corrupted models or anything.
And don't forget I made a blank version of the archipelago map when updating the Open Sea version, so moving the island images wouldn't be so annoying.

I realise the coordinates are the big issue, here. With those shores, would it be possible to set them up correctly so that they DO work with the world map code?

One crazy idea that I know you won't like: if we can move islands around by editing the map model and coordinates, what's to stop us from moving ALL the islands into a more realistic Caribbean arrangement?
To clarify, I don't mean we should ADD any islands, but move the existing ones into more accurate positions.
I understand the massive workload associated with changing a load of coordinates, but if the coding itself is relatively straightforward, then I could potentially handle it.
Finding exact coordinates would be made easier in Maya by using locators, so that would eliminate any sense of trial and error.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

So far I have been unable to figure out a way to make the worldmap coordinates take proper effect.
From what I could tell when I was messing around with them, they *might* work, but require a new game to be started.
No Reinitializing or Consoling on my part managed to change them "on the fly".
Which is really annoying for something that is quite trial-and-error-based as far as I can tell.

However, we CAN display worldmap coordinates through the console. Just not on the worldmap itself.
So it should be possible, with a bit of work, to get the correct(ish) ones by visiting all shores, then going to the worldmap, returning to sea and then logging the coordinates.
I didn't actually try this though, because the whole thing was confusing the *** out of me and I didn't consider it worth the trouble for those red X-es.

 

[Armada]

Or... you could just ask me to provide the exact coordinates from Maya.
I just managed to get the islands into the program with no problems, except for one chewed-up island caused by splitting the model up in TOOL.

Spoiler: Show image

Luckily, I noticed that this island is actually made up of two copies of another island, so I can fix the problem.

I'd still like to hear your thoughts on my crazy idea above.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Or... you could just ask me to provide the exact coordinates from Maya.

If that uses the same coordinate system, that could help quite a bit.

And it sounds like it might be worth a try. I wouldn't mind having things match up nicely.

 

[Armada]

I've now fixed the chewed-up island and I'm starting to plan out how to move the islands around.
The best course of action would probably be to plot all the existing coordinates on the map using locators, and then I can move the islands together with their locators to automatically generate the new coordinates.
I still have some questions, though:
1) In Worldmap_init.c, what do the lines position.rx, position.rz and position.ay mean? And what about the 'kradius'?
2) How would moving the islands around affect DirectSail and the Open Sea mod?
3) Would rotating an island about the XZ plane require any special changes to coordinates? And would it affect anything else?
4) Would it be possible to add physical versions of Isla Mona and Petit Tabac to the map? As in, could we make the game recognise them as 'real'?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

1) In Worldmap_init.c, what do the lines position.rx, position.rz and position.ay mean? And what about the 'kradius'?

I'm not at all sure. "ay" is usually an angle.

2) How would moving the islands around affect DirectSail and the Open Sea mod?

Screwface's rewritten DirectSail code bases itself on the actual worldmap code, so any changes we make to that should be automatically incorporated.
Note how it is possible to sail to the newly added Isla Mona in DirectSail too. We never had to manually set that up; it just works.
(Good job, Screwface! )

3) Would rotating an island about the XZ plane require any special changes to coordinates? And would it affect anything else?

If you want to recalculate the new coordinates based on the old ones, they'd probably have to be moved around according to the angle change too.

4) Would it be possible to add physical versions of Isla Mona and Petit Tabac to the map? As in, could we make the game recognise them as 'real'?

That would even be better! MUCH better! Then we don't have to use the silly "plenty palm trees" trick that Maximus developed for Isla de Muerte.
Would it be possible to add some sort of "Columbian coastline" as well for Cartagena? Then we could resort to only Isla de Muerte using the "palm trees" trick.
That one really DOES need it, because we need to be able to add and remove it during the game through code.

BTW: One thing I thought of... Have you seen this video yet?

Specifically starting at the 43 second mark is a pretty awesome look for the worldmap!
Do you think, if you're redoing the whole thing anyway, that we could do something similar?

 

[Armada]

I'm not at all sure. "ay" is usually an angle.

Hmm. I'll leave those alone, then.

Screwface's rewritten DirectSail code bases itself on the actual worldmap code, so any changes we make to that should be automatically incorporated.
Note how it is possible to sail to the newly added Isla Mona in DirectSail too. We never had to manually set that up; it just works.
(Good job, Screwface! )

I was hoping it worked like that; awesome!

If you want to recalculate the new coordinates based on the old ones, they'd probably have to be moved around according to the angle change too.

I know the coordinates for shores etc would need to be changed, but I'm more concerned about how the changes would correspond to the actual island in sailing mode.
Presumably the separate island models would not be rotated if a world map island is rotated?

That would even be better! MUCH better! Then we don't have to use the silly "plenty palm trees" trick that Maximus developed for Isla de Muerte.
Would it be possible to add some sort of "Columbian coastline" as well for Cartagena?

Cool, I can arrange something for Isla Mona and Petit Tabac, then. Which island models are they based on in sailing mode?
I guess we could add part of the mainland, depending on whether there's a size limit to the world map.
CoAS has the mainland, doesn't it? Perhaps we could borrow some models from there.

Specifically starting at the 43 second mark is a pretty awesome look for the worldmap!
Do you think, if you're redoing the whole thing anyway, that we could do something similar?

I did see that, and it looks great! We could potentially do something similar, with several texture changes... that would be quite a job!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I know the coordinates for shores etc would need to be changed, but I'm more concerned about how the changes would correspond to the actual island in sailing mode.
Presumably the separate island models would not be rotated if a world map island is rotated?

To a certain extent. Ports and shores will show up on the worldmap wherever the code tells them to.
It may compare a bit oddly to the [M]-Map interface though, making DirectSail/worldmap combo's somewhat strange.

Cool, I can arrange something for Isla Mona and Petit Tabac, then. Which island models are they based on in sailing mode?
I guess we could add part of the mainland, depending on whether there's a size limit to the world map.
CoAS has the mainland, doesn't it? Perhaps we could borrow some models from there.

Indeed CoAS does. I think that uses a different worldmap system, but GM files remain GM files.

I did see that, and it looks great! We could potentially do something similar, with several texture changes... that would be quite a job!

Up to you whether you feel like doing it. Just thought I'd suggest it...

 

[Armada]

To a certain extent. Ports and shores will show up on the worldmap wherever the code tells them to.
It may compare a bit oddly to the [M]-Map interface though, making DirectSail/worldmap combo's somewhat strange.

I'll probably avoid rotating any islands, then. Don't want to overcomplicate things.

Indeed CoAS does. I think that uses a different worldmap system, but GM files remain GM files.

If you could upload the relevant mainland files, I'll see about adding them to the map.
That is, as long as the 50,000 poly limit for OBJ export doesn't get in the way.

Up to you whether you feel like doing it. Just thought I'd suggest it...

We'll see. I guess I'd have to remove the world map sea animations if it's to be replaced with a map background. Not sure how to do that...

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'll probably avoid rotating any islands, then. Don't want to overcomplicate things.

That's probably best.

If you could upload the relevant mainland files, I'll see about adding them to the map.
That is, as long as the 50,000 poly limit for OBJ export doesn't get in the way.

I think these are all you should need:
http://piratesahoy.bowengames.com/potc/TEMP/CoAS_worldmap_models.zip
http://piratesahoy.bowengames.com/potc/TEMP/CoAS_worldmap_textures.zip

We'll see. I guess I'd have to remove the world map sea animations if it's to be replaced with a map background. Not sure how to do that...

We don't have to go for the full map look. We could go for some sort of "creative combo" or something that happens to be easier to accomplish. Brown map doesn't fit well with our fairly colourful Map Ships anyway.
Alpha maps in RESOURCE\Textures\WorldMap\Sea\Ani would get rid of the animation though. Perhaps there is a prettier solution, but that would work.
Even in that Russian modpack, they still have the "wake" behind the ships as well as the clouds over the map.

Cool, I can arrange something for Isla Mona and Petit Tabac, then. Which island models are they based on in sailing mode?

Isla Mona uses the "IslaDeMuerte" island model. Petit Tabac uses the "Terks" island model.
Actually, I wouldn't mind both island models being replaced either. Those full islands are waaay too large to REALLY be Isla Mona and Petit Tabac.
They're supposed to be quite tiny!

 

[Armada]

OK, erm, slight problems:
1) I just noticed Eleuthera didn't make it into Maya. Looks like it was completely consumed by TOOL. Not sure how I'm going to recreate it.
2) It turns out the CoAS world map ALSO consists of one large model; most of the files you gave me are just empty space with locators.
However, it has WAY over 50,000 polys, and is wrecked in TOOL. Luckily, though, I was able to salvage the southern half of the mainland.
What this means is that we could either add that mainland to the PotC map as planned, OR potentially use the entire CoAS map instead, but with no way of customising it in Maya.

We don't have to go for the full map look. We could go for some sort of "creative combo" or something that happens to be easier to accomplish. Brown map doesn't fit well with our fairly colourful Map Ships anyway.
Alpha maps in RESOURCE\Textures\WorldMap\Sea\Ani would get rid of the animation though. Perhaps there is a prettier solution, but that would work.
Even in that Russian modpack, they still have the "wake" behind the ships as well as the clouds over the map.

What do you have in mind, then? I'd say the Map Ships would probably work with a brown map, and we could keep the wave animation like the Russians did.

Isla Mona uses the "IslaDeMuerte" island model. Petit Tabac uses the "Terks" island model.
Actually, I wouldn't mind both island models being replaced either. Those full islands are waaay too large to REALLY be Isla Mona and Petit Tabac.
They're supposed to be quite tiny!

Not sure which location models and world map models we could use, though. Any suggestions?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Hum, that's a bit dodgy. Can you take the Eleuthera ISLAND model and put that on the map instead?

Using the FULL CoAS map is an interesting thought. Do you reckon we can make that work in our game engine? A real Caribbean would be pretty nice.
But wouldn't we then have even more land locations to fill up with "interesting stuff"? That's always the slowest process.

How would we eventually update this map?
http://www.moddb.com/mods/new-horizons/addons/archipelago-map
Not required, of course, but would be a shame to lose it.

What do you have in mind, then? I'd say the Map Ships would probably work with a brown map, and we could keep the wave animation like the Russians did.

Don't have anything specific in mind. I was just saying we don't need to do it quite like they did.

 

[Armada]

Hum, that's a bit dodgy. Can you take the Eleuthera ISLAND model and put that on the map instead?

I just tried messing with this, and it might work, but I can only get part of the model into Maya. I'd have some gaps to fill, though it's not like there's a better solution.

Using the FULL CoAS map is an interesting thought. Do you reckon we can make that work in our game engine? A real Caribbean would be pretty nice.
But wouldn't we then have even more land locations to fill up with "interesting stuff"? That's always the slowest process.

Do you mean using the CoAS world map with our existing islands, and porting any islands we don't already have? I'm sure that would be possible, yes.
However, I'm not sure how we'd manage to make the map match up with our current islands. Most of them look rather different.
Then there's the problem of adding content to the new islands, as you said, so this could get messy pretty quickly.

Personally, to prevent this from becoming a HUGE project, I'd say we're better off moving our existing world map islands around and adding the salvaged CoAS mainland parts.
That way, we'd have no issues with world map islands not matching the location models, AND we can still have full control over the map itself. As I said, the CoAS map can't be imported into Maya.

How would we eventually update this map?
http://www.moddb.com/mods/new-horizons/addons/archipelago-map
Not required, of course, but would be a shame to lose it.

We ask Jaco really nicely?
Assuming he made that map as a layered image, it shouldn't be too difficult to modify.