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WIP Rebalanced "initItems.c" discussion

For the record, while I did express curiosity about if and how that could work, I suggested it merely as a Build 15 experiment.

Yep, and I would have waited on it until then except for the addition of AI armor. AI armor meant something signficiant had to be done at the same time to rebalance AI weapon assignment to keep difficulty balanced, and it became a perfect opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. :)
 
Ok - I quickly made some changes. I categorized now blades and axes:

- Longswords, such as Tizona and Knight Swords:
Those now have very effective blocking, therefore can't pierce really good. They have a huge difference between min and max damage

-Sabres:
Not that good at blocking (still reasonable to defend), quite good piercing, midrange min and max damage.

- "bent" blades like the shamshir and russian and polish ones:
those have a good mix between everything.

- Shortswords, like the smallsword, shortsword and sideblade:
They have ok blocking and piercing stats. Therefore, they deal high min. damage and low difference between min and high.

- Rapiers (I dont tweaked them much, I probably have to work on these later)
Not good at blocking, therefore pierce very good. High difference between min and max damage

- The "Falchion-Class" - every blade that trades defense abilities for hurting attacks. Common for this are the Piranha, Yatagahn, Snake Head and Falchions
Weakest block-stats of all blades together with the rapiers. They have high piercing and deal very much damage. Rapiers have better piercing but not as high damage as these.

- National rank sabres - all sabres you get with promotions, including the Corsair's Pride
Strongest blades in the caribbean. Though, some longswords can have a better blocking, these swords are very powerful, and those who may carry them will be dominating on a fight

And, at last the Axes
They have as good as no blocking at all - therefore they deal immense min and max damage and have very high chance to break through blocks.

As you can see here - every blade now has a reason. Of course there are weaker and better blades in all those categories, but every categorie fits a specific fighting style quite good (except for the rank sabres which are kinda bonus items and are good in every situation).

This is my first try on this - there might be changes in the near future.
 

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@Pillat that is very interesting. MUCH more ambitious than what I did (I mechanically increased low tier by about +4 , low-mid by about +2, and mostly didn't touch high tier escept to correct obvious weirdness--meaning I mostly preserved relative differences from before and the old balance, just tightened a little bit).

Are the differences between high tier and low tier weapons still reduced, to tighten weapon tiers? Since AI will now sometimes roll the lowest tier blades, you don't want too dramatic a difference there.

I do think the project of making sword stats more consistently reflect their type makes sense, and granting tradeoffs in blade style, but given how broad sweeping the changes you describe are, it probably warrants some heavy playtesting and tweaking, as you say you plan to do. I playtested my changes for about a week, and I mostly just mechanically tightening the initial balance, rather than creating a new one. I wish I could assist with playtesting, but my work schedule will keep me mostly away.

Perhaps you could post your work as a "mod release" in beta and brainstorming, so interested players will see it and can give it a try, hopefully reporting feedback? Of course discussion should continue in this thread as well, but for maximum feedback thst might help visibility. Most of my little mod releases there got 4-8 downloads, so someone is willing to try things out. :)

EDIT: now I'd better turn back to work. Thank you Pillat for all the work you are doing, and all the work you will do! I will see all of you after my work quiets down, bye everyone. :)
 
I suggest increasing the tizona's damage a little. Partly because it's presumably heavier than the light tizona, so should be able to do more harm. And partly because the Spanish nobility longsword outclasses it in all regards despite being level 9 to the tizona's level 10. Or maybe bump up the Spanish nobility longsword minlevel a couple of notches - it's supposed to be rare and "nobility", so you shouldn't be encountering it until you're worthy. ;)

For national swords, note from "NK.c" that each nation has two promotion swords, one at rank 3 and the other at rank 8. The rank 3 one shouldn't be all that special, as that's a relatively low rank. The rank 8 one is indeed worth making into something awesome. So, for example, the English officer's sabre (blade24) doesn't need to be that great, while the corsair's pride does indeed deserve its boost.

Thanks for this, @Pillat! :onya
 
I mostly only balanced those categories in the way I wrote in the last post. The difference between the single blades in those categories is almost the same as before, only minor changes on some blades to give them a reason to exist ;)

@Grey_Roger: Both Tizonas are in the longsword categroy, meaning both have good blocking, low piercing, low min damage and quite high max damage. The Light Tizona is a bit of a better mix, since I assume it is a more allround blade than its great brother.
The national blades will get some changes soon I guess, I have to try with a new game if you get too powerfull too early with these.
 
I really look forward to enjoying your work @Pillat when I return, probably in several weeks once the project wraps up and I can play again. Thank you for doing all of this, your work is much appreciated! :)
 
Updated the file.

- Tweaked the Longswords a bit

- Rank 3 promotional sabres are now top-tier sabres, but can be outclassed in specific values by other blades (e.g. in blocking by longswords)

- Rank 8 promotional swords/rapiers are now absolute top. No other blade has such a good mix between all stats.

- Different promotional blade classes corrected: e.g. French Admirality Rapier now has, like the Rapier Categorie says, better piercing but not as good blocking as other promotional blades
 
@Pillat I had a chance to open your file, and it looks like you were working from a VERY old version of init_items. In particular, it is missing:

unrelated to experiment:
- missing tons of quest items and new items
- missing all the changes to skill items
- missing the 50% sword cost reduction we implemented to reduce land loot
- and tons of other stuff

Experimental things missing:
- missing all of my cost consistency work on sword costs
- missing armor cost reductions (absolutelly needed or loot value will go crazy)
- missing tightened weapon tiers (you can of course tighten in whatever new balance you have, but the ones you used as a base were without my tightening so they still need it)
- increased rarity for oriental blades
- gun tradeoffs
- and tons of other stuff

Winmerge lights up like a christmas tree, and you can't just merge the sword stats in or all the price changes will lose effect and the weapon tiers won't be tightened. :p

I am attaching the latest version from earlier in this thread. Probably best to go sword by sword reimplementing your stat changes (but leaving prices in place), and then tighten the differences in weapon tiers a bit (or use the already tightened versions in that file for a new base). If you later work with guns or armor, make sure to read my notes about the different way min level and rarity operate for those that I linked earlier. WIP - Rebalanced "initItems.c" discussion | PiratesAhoy!

I think this is a great project, and I look forward to playing with it myself, but it really has to be done working with the latest version, not with everything reverted first. :)

Latest version for you to work with attached.
 

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@Pillat Yes, a lot has happened! :)

The item file I attached 2 posts above is the most recent one, and incorporates the changes to Tizona discussed earlier. So no matter what, use that version of the item file when you start making changes, it is more up to date than anything from the main 4.1 download or even the extra installation Levis experimental install.

So as long as you use the version of the items file I attached 2 posts above, you will be working with the right version. :) The base 4.1 install ones are already old.
 
Ok, but since I already tweaked them in my inititems file, I think I will just stick them back to this. I played a few fights with the new system now and also tested it with a new game - its quite as I thought. The different blade categories match the playstyles I wanted, e.g. Longsword defensive play with a lot of blocking, or the aggressive fight with the boarding axe or piranha, where dodging is your best friend and fast attacks slay your opponents down.
 
@Pillat I'm not saying you should redo your work from scratch, but you also can't just merge in the sword parts because it would erase a great deal. What you would want to do is:

1) manually copy the sword damage/block/piercing ratings into the new file, but leaving alone the new prices, raritiy, min level and such adjustments so they remain from the newer version

2) then go back and replicate your own version of the "tightened weapon tiers". I used +4 damage, +10/+5 for blocking/piercing (or the reverse, depending), for the lowest tier swords, like cutlas, sabre, rapier, etc, and then halving those increases for mid to low swords, and then no general changes above that. This is needed as part of the general AI armor/expanded weapon choice modification.
 
No worries, I know I cant just merge them ;)

About the tighten, I will see, because as I categorised them, most of the blades had a specific purpose, and there were weaker and better blades for the purpose, which is a quite good thing IMO. Would be boring if every weapon was the same. If I see any too hard differences I will of course balance them out ;)
BTW, can I shove the blades into different lines so the categories are tidied up? Or does the engine starts to cry if its not in order of bladenumbers?
 
I would error on the side of caution and not reorder them, if for no other reason than it might dirupt saved game compatibility.

EDIT: erased content better explained by the chart I made in the post below.
 
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@Pillat I remember from here Unbalanced "Boss"enemies | PiratesAhoy!

that you really like short and quick fights, and you even reduced the HP per level given the enemies to achieve this. That is probably why you also gave the best swords a 50% damage increase, bringing them from the 40s to the 60s, but I'm not sure that matches everyone's playstyle. I remember reading a lot of people like the long duals of the late-game, so I'm not sure we should introduce that kind of damage increase.
 
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Since I probably won't be around for a few weeks, leaving a final note to clarify my position on the issue.

Here are the approximate range of avaerage of min/max damage, as you go from basic level 1 swords to top normal swords (ie not unique or quest stuff), under each of the balances:

Original:
lvl 1 sword, avg dmg 16
top swords, avg damage 35
Range is 19

My tightened weapon tiers:
Lvl 1 sword, avg damage 20
Top swords, avg damage 35
Range is 15, slightly tightened from original by 4

(this is what I meant about my changes being very moderate and limited)

Pillat's rebalance:
Lvl 1 sword, avg damage 16
Top swords, avg damage 60
Range is 44, more than 2x the original spread

@Pillat , the current version of your rebalance is actually the opposite direction I would hope for, for reasons of both balancing AI expanded weapon choice in response to armor and the goal discussed above of exploring slightly reduced weapon differences to push more importance to skills.

Tradeoffs are just as present among kinds of blades by the balance between their piercing/block/damage stats--indeed, keeping damage in a tighter range between best and worst tiers won't limit tradeoffs among different kinds of swords within a given tier at all. The range between best and worst weapon tiers is just a matter of better/worse, not tradeoffs. And reward blades can fully offer valuable improvement within a more moderate range.

I won't be around to provide further input, so I tried to have this post summarize my position as clearly as possible. Goodbye everyone, see you when my project is over! :)
 
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Well first of all, I understand your trouble with that. BUT, the big BUT:

You just looked for damage by now. There is a huge difference in my tweaks because of the different blade categories.
Let me explain my thoughts behind this:
Long and Broadswords are heavy and slow to handle. Due to their size, they block other blades easily, but because of the weight, you can't always make good hits. I interpreted this as a high difference between min and max damage. Since PotC doesn't allow different speed and ranges on blade attacks.

Sabres are the common choice for sailors. Thats why they have mediocre stats at everything, though they go slightly towards attack.

I don't think you are interested in the other categories so just let me summarize:
Only because some weapons now have huge damage doesn't mean that they are now overkill. And funny enough: The AI knows that. If I offer my Officers blades of different categories, they equip what suits them best, and 2 Officers can pick 2 different blades.

Exception are the promotional blades. They are an award for the player. I think it is ok that they are pretty top.

If you tighten every weapon, we would get around 20 blades with such a little difference in handling that it doesnt matter at all which sword you use.. and thats not a good feature in a RPG. That's at least my opinion.
 
One of the main reasons @Tingyun started fiddling with the item stats is because of a random idea of mine.
It seems quite unrealistic to me that the sword you use has a huge effect on how good you are at fighting.
In the end, it seems much more sensible to me that "the hand that wields it" is far more important.
So that is the logic behind giving the weapons a smaller range, rather than a larger one.

Whether that makes for good gameplay, I have absolutely not the faintest clue.
 
You are right here, but as I tweak the blades now, every blade has it pros and cons. So it still the player who has to know how to play with them. Which makes things IMO even more realistic. In my latest tweaks I am testing ATM, I reduced topdamage for most of the blades to quite the same level, and the topdamages only are stated by the weapon-category. Of course, the blades in the later game are slightly better.
The main things I am changing through the blades are min damage piercing and blocking ;)
 
If you tighten every weapon, we would get around 20 blades with such a little difference in handling that it doesnt matter at all which sword you use.. and thats not a good feature in a RPG.

Which is why that is not what I did. To explain again, I gave the worst swords, the min level 1 guys, about a +4 to damage, and the lowish to mid, about a +2. Since the worst swords are only on the player's radar for a brief moment, this mainly had the effect of still allowing the AI to equip the worst swords sometimes (which is critical part of the balancing system for AI armor), while preserving all the old progression for the player and interesting tradeoffs between swords.

I already responded to the blade differentiation and reward sword argument above, to quote: "Tradeoffs are just as present among kinds of blades by the balance between their piercing/block/damage stats--indeed, keeping damage in a tighter range between best and worst tiers won't limit tradeoffs among different kinds of swords within a given tier at all. The range between best and worst weapon tiers is just a matter of better/worse, not tradeoffs. And reward blades can fully offer valuable improvement within a more moderate range."

Your post reads as if there were no interesting weapon selection or blade progression in POTC before. There was. That isn't a new idea. There are blades with more damage, more piercing, more block, or less of these, all different types of blades for the player with all diferent balances among them to select depending on style.

Your post also reads as if in POTC blades of a certain style didn't behave consistently. That isn't true either. I spent enough time studying the stats of cutlases, rapiers, straight swords, sabres, etc, to know that the previous balance and stats on swords were well thought-out and thematic. With only a very few exceptions, like the Kilij, were they not what they should be, and I corrected the very few ones I could find.

Seriously, take the base mod sword stats, find the swords for s given tier with a block stat relatively low compared to others of similar min level, and look them up on wikipedia. You will find they lack a hilt guard usually, or otherwise aren't as defensive. Block stats still go up as tier goes up, so the highest tier swords have a reasonable block stat regardless, but definitally low for their tier to reflect sword style.

So the original balance already had well-designed thematic swords, with plenty of variety. This isn't a new invention just now being discovered and discussed. Past modders understood this.

Which is why I didn't mess with it except very conservatively and moderately. By only really changing the lowest level to mid blades, and only very moderately, and basically not touching the mid to highblades (except where I improved balance for a specific sword needing it, like the Kilij), I entirely preserved the existing balance, with all the interesting blade selection of different syles of sword, and all the previous progression.

Basically,the mod already well designed swords that generally reflected their style, and offered interesting choices, and so I entirely preserved that.

I am very much against throwing out all that past work and wisdom of past modders and trying to achieve an entirely new sword system with a complete overhaul.

At the same time, my very limited changes to tighten weapon tiers (again, only at the low end and progressively decreasing to 0 as it reaches mid, leaving high end swords alone, and preserving all the wonderful balance and variety), is NEEDED as an essential part of the current experiments. It explores the idea I discussed with Pieter above, and also, even more pressing, it is an essential part of the expanded weapon selection for AI and balancing the addition of AI armor.

I do NOT think it makes sense to unbalance a carefully designed system when it is critical to testing the new balance of multiple other experiments--AI armor and expanded weapon selection deserve to be tested in an enviorment in which they were carefully balanced and tweaked and tested over weeks of preperation, not something entirely new!

Consider this my final plea to avoid scrapping my experiments before they have even been tried. But all the things I said before apply--I carefully tightened weapon tiers to achieve a thoroughly tested balance with the expanded weapon selection and AI equips armor mods, and I don't think it is fair to throw that immediately out in favor of a different (and far more dramatic) experiment going in the entirely opposite direction.


There is enough modding work to be done here that we don't all have to experiment with the exact same files at the exact same time, no? Because I think mine should be tried out before being entirely replaced with something entirely different. I am all for people tweaking my experimental rebalance within its own principles, but entirely and immediately reverting my tightened weapon tiers with a new "vastly increased weapon differences" mod doesn't seem right, before we've had any chance to see how it works. Especially since the moderate and limited nature in which I've done the experiment preserves the previous variety and general sword balance, and is needed to balance some very interesting other experimental systems that would become unabalanced otherwise (AI armor and expanded weapon selection). And I do not find pursuasive claims that somehow the new complet overhaul would automatically be bakanced, especially when it was designed under version 4.0, without my AI armor system or the expanded weapon variety, and under personal modifications of Pillat that include drastic modifications to the way HP works for AI. That just isn't a recipe for balancing something for general use.

There really is enough work for modders in POTC that we don't have to immediatelly come in and create conflicting experiments that replace other modder's hard work before it has even been tried. That just doesn't seem fair.

I feel like I'm talking in circles, repeating the same pleas over and over. So this time it either works or it doesn't, if the above (especially the last paragraph) aren't convincing, then oh well, I give up and will just consider it wasted time and move along. Throw out my experiment or not, this will be the last of my pleas.
 
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