Penalties for starting with a Tier 5 Ship

[Armada]

I noticed in a recent Free Play start that, despite being able to select up to a Tier 5 vessel, the penalties for doing so are quite severe.

I started with a 6th Rate Frigate (HMS_Greyhound) expecting it to be fairly agile and an effective privateer ship for the early game. Instead, I'm given a major reduction to my party's Sailing stat, even after hiring a navigator.

This meant my ship was, in practice, much less effective than I anticipated, especially against Heavy Brigs and Sloops-of-War, which were the most common pirate vessels I came across. Normally, I'd expect a ship like this to be evenly matched with either of those, but my reduced Sailing skill meant my top speed and manoeuvrability suffered, allowing enemies to get more shots in than I could.

To make things worse, I started in Speightstown with the typical tutorial quests, but even after I sold my goods and hired some crew, I found I was unable to pay for even a small fraction of the ship repairs, because they're very expensive for a Tier 5 ship. As a result, my goal for the first few hours in the game simply became "try to get enough money to pay for ship repairs". As I kept bumping into pirates every so often, or trying to complete governor ship quests, my ship kept taking damage faster than I could afford to repair it, which made my intended Privateer playthrough pretty hopeless.

I eventually concluded that starting with a Tier 5 ship was a bad idea, so I started a new game with a Tier 6 Brigantine and was able to overcome the penalties much more quickly. I didn't have astronomical repair bills to pay in the tutorial, either.

So, there are two things I'm wondering about here:

1. Should the penalties for a Tier 5 start be this severe?
2. Should the tutorial be rebalanced to make repairs more affordable for bigger ships?

There's also a slight concern that the Greyhound might just be underpowered compared to a Heavy Brig, but that would be a separate topic to discuss.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Talisman]

To make things worse, I started in Speightstown with the typical tutorial quests, but even after I sold my goods and hired some crew, I found I was unable to pay for even a small fraction of the ship repairs, because they're very expensive for a Tier 5 ship. As a result, my goal for the first few hours in the game simply became "try to get enough money to pay for ship repairs".

Just out of interest - did you just use the money you got from selling the goods in the tutorial - or did you also get a loan from the Loan Shark in Speightstown?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

@Armada, just so you know, there is nothing deliberately in place to apply extra penalties at game start for a Tier 5 ship.
That is more of an unintentional side-effect of unrelated game systems being in place.

On Realistic Game Mode, the minimum skill between Sailing and Leadership controls the maximum ship Tier that you can command without taking a penalty.
This would also happen if you've got both at 5 and capture a Tier 1 ship in mid-game, so it isn't exclusive to the game start.

Unrelated to that, the tutorial is intended to give you enough money and goods to complete all of it. But I don't think that always quite works the way it should.
Which isn't much of a surprise, considering the number of variables involve, e.g. player commerce and repair skills, amount of ship damage, ship itself, starting island, state of the economy, etc.


I can definitely see how it would make for an extra-challenging start though. Which, in one particular instance, actually is intentional on my part:
If you select Cutler Beckett in the Free Play storyline, he is given command of the Endeavour.
However, he still only starts at level 5, so he'll have a MASSIVELY hard time dealing with such a large ship in the early game!
This is meant to be part of the challenge of that character. Yes, you get an awesome ship. But you're not ready, so good luck.

On the other side, if you select the "admiral" character, you start the game already AS admiral in the navy, along with the appropriate fleet.
But you also get a higher starting rank so that you'll actually be (somewhat) fit to command that fleet.


As for solutions, I can think of the following:

- It is possible to set a "minlevel" for character model in initModels.c; higher number will result in a higher starting level,
therefore higher skills and hopefully being able to better command a larger ship.

- We could also enforce that the player should at least get enough skills to command his own selected starting ship;
but I don't know if we should want that, since it would remove one potential extra early-game challenge for those people who do like that.

- Double-check the tutorial code and see if we can ensure you get enough money to complete the tutorial, despite all the variables involved.


That is what I can think of right now. Not sure which of those ideas are good and which ones aren't.
I'm open for other suggestions.

 

[Grey Roger]

You're a fresh new captain with a ship you barely know how to handle. Start off easy. Don't go after pirates and warships. Do some commerce raiding instead. Or find some competent officers to help out.

Instead of paying the shipyard for repairs, buy some planks and sailcloth and get your carpenter to do them. It probably costs less and your carpenter gets some experience. (Incidentally, the tutorial doesn't care how you get the ship repaired and doesn't even require it to be at 100%. I went to the store, sold the initial cargo, stocked up on various supplies, and the store took until the following morning to complete the trade. So the ship repaired a bit of damage and the tutorial duly checked off the "repair ship" task.)

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Instead of paying the shipyard for repairs, buy some planks and sailcloth and get your carpenter to do them. It probably costs less and your carpenter gets some experience. (Incidentally, the tutorial doesn't care how you get the ship repaired and doesn't even require it to be at 100%. I went to the store, sold the initial cargo, stocked up on various supplies, and the store took until the following morning to complete the trade. So the ship repaired a bit of damage and the tutorial duly checked off the "repair ship" task.)

As long as Malcolm is with you, time does not pass. But if you skip that bit, then it does.

You also aren't required to complete all tasks in the tutorial.
As soon as you leave the island, all tutorial quests are removed from your Questbook.
If you then still have some damage, you can still continue play.

 

[Grey Roger]

I do skip Malcolm. Mostly if I'm playing the tutorial, it's because I'm doing a quick free-play to try out a ship, and the quickest way to do that is to start off as a corsair of the relevant nation. Then I tell Malcolm to get lost, rush through the tutorial (I didn't know it is cancelled by leaving the island), then put the ship through its paces. (That's how I got all the screenshots for the repainted British fleet, for example.) Anyway, most of what's in the tutorial is a good idea - get a semi-decent spyglass, sell the cargo, get a crew. The only one I don't do is repair the ship; instead I stock up on as much planking and sailcloth as I can carry / afford, then do the repairs myself, which saves a bit of money and gets me some Repair XP.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I do skip Malcolm. Mostly if I'm playing the tutorial, it's because I'm doing a quick free-play to try out a ship, and the quickest way to do that is to start off as a corsair of the relevant nation. Then I tell Malcolm to get lost, rush through the tutorial (I didn't know it is cancelled by leaving the island), then put the ship through its paces. (That's how I got all the screenshots for the repainted British fleet, for example.) Anyway, most of what's in the tutorial is a good idea - get a semi-decent spyglass, sell the cargo, get a crew. The only one I don't do is repair the ship; instead I stock up on as much planking and sailcloth as I can carry / afford, then do the repairs myself, which saves a bit of money and gets me some Repair XP.

Makes perfect sense.

I only mentioned that above to explain a potential difference in time passing or not, if anyone happened to notice.

 

[Armada]

Just out of interest - did you just use the money you got from selling the goods in the tutorial - or did you also get a loan from the Loan Shark in Speightstown?

Only the profit from selling the cargo. That always used to be plenty enough, unless I'm mistaken.

@Armada, just so you know, there is nothing deliberately in place to apply extra penalties at game start for a Tier 5 ship.
That is more of an unintentional side-effect of unrelated game systems being in place.

Yeah, I figured as much. I was more baffled that you could even select a Tier 5 ship to start with, despite the penalties involved.
I'm not going to suggest that we change this in case some people like it that way, but I do still find it a bit counter-intuitive.

Instead of paying the shipyard for repairs, buy some planks and sailcloth and get your carpenter to do them. It probably costs less and your carpenter gets some experience.

If that's a more economical way of doing it, then when is it wise to use the shipyard at all?

You also aren't required to complete all tasks in the tutorial.
As soon as you leave the island, all tutorial quests are removed from your Questbook.
If you then still have some damage, you can still continue play.

I'm not bothered by the quest completing properly or not. I'm bothered by starting off with my ship's hull at 60 - 70% because I can't afford to repair it.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Only the profit from selling the cargo. That always used to be plenty enough, unless I'm mistaken.

It is indeed meant to be. But I think there is something throwing that out of whack.
Could be that there is a maximum on the amount of cargo (I seem to vaguely remember something about 1000) set somewhere in StartStoryline.c .
We'd have to check. If that is indeed in place, it should be easy enough to remove that limitation and see if that helps.

Yeah, I figured as much. I was more baffled that you could even select a Tier 5 ship to start with, despite the penalties involved.
I'm not going to suggest that we change this in case some people like it that way, but I do still find it a bit counter-intuitive.

I can't remember what we set as the maximum ship tier that can be selected without cheatmode.
It was either 6 or 5, if I recall. If you don't use cheatmode, then apparently it is indeed 5. It is easily changed. Should we change it to 6?
I do remember that WITH cheatmode, you can select whatever you want.

If that's a more economical way of doing it, then when is it wise to use the shipyard at all?

I assume because the shipyard is faster? Allowing your Repair skill to do it might take a while to repair all that damage.
And in the meantime, you're vulnerable in sea battles.

Possibly also Repair cannot do 100%, but I can't remember if that is the case or not....

I'm not bothered by the quest completing properly or not. I'm bothered by starting off with my ship's hull at 60 - 70% because I can't afford to repair it.

That comment was for "information only" and intended more for Grey Roger than yourself.
I definitely understand where you're coming from.

 

[Grey Roger]

It is indeed meant to be. But I think there is something throwing that out of whack.
Could be that there is a maximum on the amount of cargo (I seem to vaguely remember something about 1000) set somewhere in StartStoryline.c .
We'd have to check. If that is indeed in place, it should be easy enough to remove that limitation and see if that helps.

Setting the limit to higher than 1000 won't help a 6th rate frigate much. Its capacity, according to "Ships_init.c", is 1250, some of which will be needed for food and rum.

I can't remember what we set as the maximum ship tier that can be selected without cheatmode.
It was either 6 or 5, if I recall. If you don't use cheatmode, then apparently it is indeed 5. It is easily changed. Should we change it to 6?

I suggest leaving it at 5, but put a hint somewhere that tier 5 is beyond the ability of a novice captain so you're going to have trouble commanding it at first.

I assume because the shipyard is faster? Allowing your Repair skill to do it might take a while to repair all that damage.
And in the meantime, you're vulnerable in sea battles.

Correct. If you want the repair done in a few days, pay the shipyard. If you don't mind waiting rather longer, do it yourself. Of course, if you're a novice commander in a tier 5 ship then you probably don't want to get into many sea battles anyway.

Possibly also Repair cannot do 100%, but I can't remember if that is the case or not....

It can certainly get to 99% and sometimes to 100% because I've done it. Also, you can mix the two methods. Buy yourself some planks and sailcloth, put the ship into the shipyard, tell it to repair part of the damage, and while the shipyard is taking a few days to do that, your carpenter will add another few percent. (And you won't be at risk of a sea battle while all this is going on. )

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Setting the limit to higher than 1000 won't help a 6th rate frigate much. Its capacity, according to "Ships_init.c", is 1250, some of which will be needed for food and rum.

I don't know if it is even there, nor what it is set to. But if it is, that is a simple thing to try to tackle it.
Plus, I think there is code in place to make up the difference in starting gold.

It can certainly get to 99% and sometimes to 100% because I've done it. Also, you can mix the two methods. Buy yourself some planks and sailcloth, put the ship into the shipyard, tell it to repair part of the damage, and while the shipyard is taking a few days to do that, your carpenter will add another few percent. (And you won't be at risk of a sea battle while all this is going on. )

Clever!

It must be one of those Instant Repair abilities I was thinking of that can only do a limited amount.

 

[Grey Roger]

I don't know if it is even there, nor what it is set to. But if it is, that is a simple thing to try to tackle it.
Plus, I think there is code in place to make up the difference in starting gold.

That's not the point, though. The real limit is that the 6th rate frigate can't carry much over 1000 anyway, so changing or removing any limitation set by "StartStoryline.c" won't do anything.

Though, if you can set the starting cargo to 5000 and "StartStoryline.c" then gives you free money for all the cargo it can't fit into your ship, then starting with a big ship with a small hold is a way to get a lot of free money.

It must be one of those Instant Repair abilities I was thinking of that can only do a limited amount.

Yes, Instant Repair takes the ship up to 90%, provided you have enough planks and sailcloth to feed it. If you still have planks and sailcloth when Instant Repair is finished, normal repair can take the ship up the rest of the way.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That's not the point, though. The real limit is that the 6th rate frigate can't carry much over 1000 anyway, so changing or removing any limitation set by "StartStoryline.c" won't do anything.

Though, if you can set the starting cargo to 5000 and "StartStoryline.c" then gives you free money for all the cargo it can't fit into your ship, then starting with a big ship with a small hold is a way to get a lot of free money.

Money you'd all need to succesfully complete the tutorial by repairing your ship at the shipyard.

Yes, Instant Repair takes the ship up to 90%, provided you have enough planks and sailcloth to feed it. If you still have planks and sailcloth when Instant Repair is finished, normal repair can take the ship up the rest of the way.

 

[Grey Roger]

Money you'd all need to succesfully complete the tutorial by repairing your ship at the shipyard.

See above. You can complete the repair part of the tutorial by getting some plank and sailcloth, then waiting until the next day. If it isn't next day when the store finishes buying your cargo and selling your planks, you can go to the tavern. The ship does a bit of auto-repair and that's enough to satisfy the tutorial.

Here's the relevant tutorial code:

       SetQuestHeader("Tutorial_Shipyard");
       AddQuestRecord("Tutorial_Shipyard", 1);

       PChar.quest.Tut_RepairShip.win_condition.l1 = "Ship_HP";
       PChar.quest.Tut_RepairShip.win_condition.l1.character = PChar.id;
//NK -->
       PChar.quest.Tut_RepairShip.win_condition.l1.quantity = GetCharacterShipHP(PChar);
// NK <--
       PChar.quest.Tut_RepairShip.win_condition.l1.operation = ">=";
       PChar.quest.Tut_RepairShip.win_condition = "Tut_RepairShip";
       PChar.quest.Tut_RepairShip.fail_condition = "Tut_RepairShip";

If I read that correctly, if your ship's HP becomes greater than it is at the time when this code is invoked then it proceeds to case "Tut_RepairShip", which closes the repair quest. And that's going to happen if you repair so much as 1 HP, which means loading up on planks and going to sleep for a night will do the job.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Pretty much all relevant code is indeed in StartStoryline.c . And unfortunately it isn't all that simple, due to the variables involved.

First you get a minimum set of starting goods:

  int loadBalls = makeint(GetCannonQuantity(PChar)*BALLS_PER);
   int loadGrapes = makeint(GetCannonQuantity(PChar)*GRAPE_PER);
   int loadChain = makeint(GetCannonQuantity(PChar)*CHAIN_PER);
   int loadBombs = makeint(GetCannonQuantity(PChar)*BOMBS_PER*(!USE_REAL_CANNONS));
   int loadWheat = makeint(sti(PChar.ship.crew.quantity) * FOOD_PER_CREW * WHEAT_DAYS * 1.5);   // PB: Jamaica is pretty far with the new Worldmap
   int loadRum = makeint(sti(PChar.ship.crew.quantity) * FOOD_PER_CREW * RUM_DAYS * 1.5);     // PB: And refitting your ship takes 15 days

   int loadGunpowder = makeint(GetCannonQuantity(PChar) * GetCannonChargesPerCannon(PChar)) * CANNONPOWDER_MOD;
   if (loadGunpowder < 0) loadGunpowder = 0;
   loadGunpowder *= (BALLS_PER + GRAPE_PER + CHAIN_PER + BOMBS_PER*(!USE_REAL_CANNONS));

   int loadCargo = GetGoodWeightByType(GOOD_BALLS, loadBalls) + GetGoodWeightByType(GOOD_GRAPES, loadGrapes) + GetGoodWeightByType(GOOD_KNIPPELS, loadChain) + GetGoodWeightByType(GOOD_BOMBS, loadBombs) + GetGoodWeightByType(GOOD_WHEAT, loadWheat) + GetGoodWeightByType(GOOD_RUM, loadRum) + GetGoodWeightByType(GOOD_GUNPOWDER, loadGunpowder);

   if (space < loadCargo) {
     int cargo_count = makeint((loadBalls > 0) + (loadGrapes > 0) + (loadChain > 0) + (loadBombs > 0) + (loadWheat > 0) + (loadRum > 0));
     if (cargo_count != 0) {
       loadBalls /= cargo_count;
       loadGrapes /= cargo_count;
       loadChain /= cargo_count;
       loadBombs /= cargo_count;
       loadWheat /= cargo_count;
       loadRum /= cargo_count;
       loadGunpowder /= cargo_count;
     }
   }
   SetCharacterGoods(&PChar, GOOD_BALLS, loadBalls);
   SetCharacterGoods(&PChar, GOOD_GRAPES, loadGrapes);
   SetCharacterGoods(&PChar, GOOD_KNIPPELS, loadChain);
   SetCharacterGoods(&PChar, GOOD_BOMBS, loadBombs);
   SetCharacterGoods(&PChar, GOOD_WHEAT, loadWheat);
   SetCharacterGoods(&PChar, GOOD_RUM, loadRum);
   SetCharacterGoods(&PChar, GOOD_GUNPOWDER, loadGunpowder);

I wonder if that might be replaced with the 'EmptyShip' and 'SupplyShip' functions that I wrote at some point.
The one does as advertised, the other one provides a "default Auto Buy" set of goods.

Here you get some import goods assigned:

  int attempts = 0;
   CharGood1 = 0;
   CharGood2 = 0;
   while(CharGood1 == CharGood2)
   {
     CharGood1 = getRandomImportGood(GetIslandByID(FindIslandByLocation(loadPort)));
     CharGood2 = getRandomImportGood(GetIslandByID(FindIslandByLocation(loadPort)));
     // PB: Keep looping until *valid* goods are found -->
     if (CharGood1 == GOOD_SAILCLOTH   || CharGood2 == GOOD_SAILCLOTH   ) CharGood1 = CharGood2;
     if (CharGood1 == GOOD_PLANKS   || CharGood2 == GOOD_PLANKS     ) CharGood1 = CharGood2;
     if (CharGood1 == GOOD_WHEAT     || CharGood2 == GOOD_WHEAT     ) CharGood1 = CharGood2;
     if (CharGood1 == GOOD_RUM      || CharGood2 == GOOD_RUM     ) CharGood1 = CharGood2;
     if (CharGood1 == GOOD_GUNPOWDER   || CharGood2 == GOOD_GUNPOWDER   ) CharGood1 = CharGood2;
     // PB: Keep looping until *valid* goods are found <--
     attempts++;
     if(attempts > 20) break;
   }
   
   /*if (CharGood1 == GOOD_SAILCLOTH || CharGood1 == GOOD_PLANKS)    CharGood1 = GOOD_SILK;
   if (CharGood1 == GOOD_WHEAT || CharGood1 == GOOD_RUM)        CharGood1 = GOOD_SILK;
   if (CharGood2 == GOOD_SAILCLOTH || CharGood2 == GOOD_PLANKS)    CharGood2 = GOOD_WINE;
   if (CharGood2 == GOOD_WHEAT || CharGood2 == GOOD_RUM)        CharGood2 = GOOD_WINE;*/

   space -= loadCargo;
   float cargo_div = Rand(100)/100.0;
   loadCargo = makeint(cargo_div*space);
   if (loadCargo > 100) loadCargo = 100;
   SetCharacterGoods(&PChar, CharGood1, loadCargo);
   space -= loadCargo;
   loadCargo = makeint((1.0-cargo_div)*space);
   if (loadCargo > 100) loadCargo = 100;
   SetCharacterGoods(&PChar, CharGood2, loadCargo);

It fills up your entire hold, with a random ratio between the two goods.
Turns out that "maximum" I mentioned was not 1000, but actually 100.

Then here you should get enough money to hire the crew and repair the ship:

// by this section we are adding money to character (if he has a unsufficiently sum for ship's repair and crew's hiring) -->
   ref sto; makeref(sto, Stores[CharStore]);
   int cargoPrice1 = GetGoodPriceByType(sto, PChar, CharGood1, GetCargoGoods(PChar,CharGood1),PRICE_TYPE_SELL);
   int cargoPrice2 = GetGoodPriceByType(sto, PChar, CharGood2, GetCargoGoods(PChar,CharGood2),PRICE_TYPE_SELL);
  float qty = 1;
   switch(Rand(5))
  {
     case 0: qty = 1.356; break;
     case 1: qty = 1.890; break;
     case 2: qty = 1.674; break;
     case 3: qty = 1.724; break;
     case 4: qty = 1.057; break;
     case 5: qty = 1.532; break;
  }

   int sailCostPercent = 10;
   int hullCostPercent = 20;
   aref arCurShip; makearef(arCurShip, PChar.ship);
   int shipPrice = sti(GetLocalShipAttrib(arCurShip, GetCharacterShipType(PChar), "Price"));
   int hireQty = makeint(GetMaxCrewQuantity(PChar) - GetCrewQuantity(PChar));

   int hireCost = sti(GetCrewHireCost(PChar) * hireQty);
   int repCost = MakeInt(makeint((((shipPrice*hullCostPercent+99)/100)*makeint(100 - MakeInt(GetHullPercent(PChar)))+99)/100)) + MakeInt((makeint((shipPrice*sailCostPercent+99)/100)*makeint(100 - MakeInt(GetSailPercent(PChar)))+99)/100);

   int avPrice = makeint(cargoPrice1 + cargoPrice2)*qty;
   if (makeint(cargoPrice1 + cargoPrice2) < sti(hireCost+repCost)) {
     int addMoney = makeint(sti(hireCost+repCost)-avPrice);
     if (addMoney > 0)
       AddMoneyToCharacter(PChar, addMoney);
     else
       AddMoneyToCharacter(PChar, sti(hireCost+repCost));
   } else {
     PChar.money = makeint(5000*qty);// TIH fixed decimal gold on start new game
   }
// by this section we are adding money to character (if he has a unsufficiently sum for ship's repair and crew's hiring) <--

But that should only kick in if the cargo by itself isn't enough to pay for it.

This code is all massively out-of-date and I suspect that, while the intention is good, it no longer does what it is meant to.
Probably there is a mismatch between the code being used here and the code in use elsewhere to determine various prices.

It would take some debugging and comparing to find where the mismatch comes from.

Note also that there is a complete random modifier thrown on top:

  float qty = 1;
   switch(Rand(5))
  {
     case 0: qty = 1.356; break;
     case 1: qty = 1.890; break;
     case 2: qty = 1.674; break;
     case 3: qty = 1.724; break;
     case 4: qty = 1.057; break;
     case 5: qty = 1.532; break;
  }

But I have not even the faintest clue why that is there. My first suggestion would be to get rid of that!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

See above. You can complete the repair part of the tutorial by getting some plank and sailcloth, then waiting until the next day. If it isn't next day when the store finishes buying your cargo and selling your planks, you can go to the tavern. The ship does a bit of auto-repair and that's enough to satisfy the tutorial.

True. I think that is only if you don't stay with Malcolm though. Just to simplify matters.

If I read that correctly, if your ship's HP becomes greater than it is at the time when this code is invoked then it proceeds to case "Tut_RepairShip", which closes the repair quest. And that's going to happen if you repair so much as 1 HP, which means loading up on planks and going to sleep for a night will do the job.

No, 'GetCharacterShipHP' returns the maximum HP for that ship.
So the questbook won't close until the ship is fully repaired.

Anyway, the problem wasn't with the questbook.
The problem was with not being able to pay for the entire repairs up to 100% at the shipyard.

 

[Grey Roger]

Something funny is going on, then, because I did exactly what I described - much to my surprise. I went to the store, sold the cargo, bought some supplies (including planks and sailcloth), and when I exited the store dialog, all that cargo transferring had taken the time past midnight. It was next day, the ship had done a bit of auto-repair, and the repair quest had closed. I hadn't been to the shipyard at all.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Something funny is going on, then, because I did exactly what I described - much to my surprise. I went to the store, sold the cargo, bought some supplies (including planks and sailcloth), and when I exited the store dialog, all that cargo transferring had taken the time past midnight. It was next day, the ship had done a bit of auto-repair, and the repair quest had closed. I hadn't been to the shipyard at all.

Maybe the ship didn't have too much damage to repair? Or it actually took more than a single day? Or both?

 

[Grey Roger]

The ship was at the usual 60% to start with. I don't think I was in the store for multiple days. And I'm pretty sure the ship wasn't at 100% when I left the store with a closed repair quest.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

The ship was at the usual 60% to start with. I don't think I was in the store for multiple days. And I'm pretty sure the ship wasn't at 100% when I left the store with a closed repair quest.

In that case, please try again and see if you can confirm it.
If so, it suggests something is actually wrong, so a Bug Tracker report would be needed.