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WIP Officer perk contributions

Grey Roger

Sea Dog
Staff member
Administrator
Storm Modder
Playing the 23rd September version, I hired a surgeon, who came with lots of ability points ready to use. I'd hoped to give him the usual surgeon perks - Basic Ship Defence, Advanced Ship Defence, Professional Ship Defence. Except the surgeon no longer contributes the last two!

Looking at "init_officertypes.c", I found out why. The first mate is now apparently the surgeon - he's the one who gets all the surgeon perks. The surgeon is now redundant, meaning he has a lot of free time on his hands, which is presumably why he's taken up gambling - he gets to contribute High Stakes. This just about makes sense if the doctor's name is "Holliday". xD Meanwhile, in order to turn my surgeon into a proper surgeon, I changed him into a first mate.

Can we put the perk contributions back the way they were? Or, if we want to give the first mate a bit more importance, make him the one who gets Basic Ship Defence and High Stakes.
 
@Grey Roger: For the reasoning behind it, see here (I think):
Mod Release - Now included in latest patch: Trade Winds, AI armor, weapons variety, captain rebalancing, etc | PiratesAhoy!

Note that the 23 Sep 2016 version is very much an experimental release and does NOT necessarily reflect what will go in the final modpack.
@Levis promised to make a "fixes only" version of the ZIP some time soon(ish) which would be different.

Before any of these changes make it into the main mod, I will definitely require some community consensus on them.
Hopefully the current version can serve to gain feedback on these changes so that when the time comes,
we'll know which changes are good to add to the "official" mod and which ones need further work/should be excluded.
 
From that thread:
Besides, the old system didn't make ANY sense. The doctor reduces damage to ship from cannonfire? How? The Firstmate certainly could--he is organizing the deck crews, making sure they are in the right places, managing getting people in and out, training them to handle the fire in the first place.
The doctor reduces crew casualties. There being no separate perks for reducing ship damage and crew damage, he should get all the perks necessary to reduce damage. It is reasonable for the first mate to get Basic Ship Defence as that's the one which grants you the ability to put out fires.

The original set gives the First Mate "Iron Will", "Shared Experience" and "Fire Ship", which is reasonable - he's your second in command and responsible for controlling the crew and the rest of the officers. He also gets "Fast Reload", "Grappling" and "Basic Commerce" - again, reasonable for the second in command, a bit of everything while not having the detailed knowledge of the specialists. I quite like that First Mate, and routinely assign Lucia or Edmundo to that role when they join you as officer during "Ardent". The one addition to First Mate which does make sense is "Troopers", though that's the Master at Arms' speciality in the current system, so giving it to the First Mate devalues the Master at Arms.

But looking through that thread does remind me of one other problem in the 23rd September version - wind changes are a lot more random and liable to do a 180 degree shift.

I'm aware that this isn't necessarily what's going into the final modpack. However, the whole idea of releasing it is so people can try it out and provide feedback. Here it is. :cheeky
 
The doctor reduces crew casualties.
Regardless of perk and skill contributions, the doctor DOES reduce after-battle casualties by increasing the number of wounded who survive.

But looking through that thread does remind me of one other problem in the 23rd September version - wind changes are a lot more random and liable to do a 180 degree shift.
That is probably very much unintentional! Please report that in the relevant thread there; I'm sure @Tingyun and @Levis will be wanting to know that.

I'm aware that this isn't necessarily what's going into the final modpack. However, the whole idea of releasing it is so people can try it out and provide feedback. Here it is. :cheeky
Much appreciated! :woot

I just wanted to make that point to avoid any potential confusion (Lord knows we've had enough of that lately! :facepalm ).
Plus I cannot comment on the specifics, because I didn't really get deeply involved in those discussions and changes at all.
 
Thanks for the feedback. I was a bit unsure about the change too but that's why we included it, to get some feedback on it.
 
Really sorry to not be around for further discussion, but real quick:

On firstmate:

- we could make seperate perks for crew casaulties, but under the current system, why should the doctor have much effect in determining how many people get hurt when a cannonball hits the ship? He saves people after they are hurt, keeps the wounded from dying in a seperate mechanic, he doesn't protect them from initially getting hurt. A firstmate could, by keeping proper order running on the ship and men where they are supposed to be. Even if you think the doctor should have an effect, the firstmate has as much claim to the crew damage part of the current perk.

-As for the other defense effects, damage to the hull and sails, there is no world in which a doctor should have an effect. Meanwhile, again for the firstmate it makes sense, he organizes damage control teams, trains teams to handle the battle, etc.

- So the firstmate getting the perk instead of the doctor is clearly right for 2/3 effects, and arguably right for the remaining 1/3.

- turning to ganeplay, Grey Roger describes all the things the firstmate could do before, but in reality, could he actually do anything at all? He gets basic commerce, but you'll still need a quatermaster for advanced. Fast reload,but you'll want a gunner. Grappling, but you'll still want a bosun. So none of those will matter in the end, especially when the ship gets big. He lost shared XP because of potential glitches with a new shared xp system if the player has it and then the officer dies, so it was made player only (Levis and I discussed this, in anticipation of his new system). The firstmate will never contribute leadership except maybe as a crutch at the player very low level.

- so we have the firstmate as an officer who contributes no skill useful to the player most of the time, and only has 3 perk points worth of things to offer. Even if that expands a bit to a few more perks, the firstmate becomes the least useful and most replacable person on the entire ship. Is that what we want? Only roleplayers would use him while the game mechanics tell the player to dump him at the first chance.

- meanwhile, the doctor has a critical role in treating casaulties, and providing multiple useful perks (doubling healing items, giving poison resistance). The doctor is useful and has a secure role without magically deflecting cannonballs from the ship's hull.

- So the tranfer of defense perks to firstmate is both more realistic, and has the gameplay effect of making both the firstmate and doctor useful with something to offer the ship.

On wind:

- I think Grey Roger is referrig to dramatic shifts in the rare eastern winds, which is intentional, in particular, if the wind is blowing to the E, the next shift will likely be large. Generally not 180 degrees (never saw that once in testing and recording some 30 wind shifts, after I reduced the angle at Skyworm's suggestion), but you could see SE winds shifting to NE winds, or E winds shifting back to pointing in some W direction, basically with winds blowing east 90 degrees or a bit more of shift is not too uncommon, though 90% of wind changes will be much smaller.

- however, wind changes shouldn't have dramatic changes except rarely, and only going to or away from the eastern directions, which are reflecting the unstable and fleeting winds blowing east. It isn't possible to have a strong trend of winds blowing west with only having fleeting temporary winds blowing to the east while still at the same time never having a substantial shift of wind, you need occasional strong shifts that dissipate to buck the trend, given the way wind is programmed in the game.

- Basically, the winds blowing east are unstable, which is both by design and nessecity if we are to create this strong western trend.

- It never creates issues for me. Most wind changes are small, and all wind changes are predictable, occuring on the hour. If people find those rare jumps to the east unplayable, then we will end up needing a toggle probably. I could try reducing the max wind change again, but as long as it is high enough to create the possibility of a brief eastern wind at all, that will be in the form of a jump. We could reduce it from 2 to 1.5, but someone would need to check the winds blowong east are still possible and frequent enough, and it will still jump to and from the east, even if a bit smaller.

- Shouldn't be hard to make a toggle though, the code is all in 2 obvious places in weather generation. Not too much of a reason not to make a toggle I think, as aside from people who mind the occasional jump to or from the east, there are probably people who simply don't want the wind trend at all and prefer random.

I'd say let's make a toggle for the wind changes. I can't do it right now, I could do it next month or so when I get back, or if someone wants it in the meanttime, I've left "TY" comments where things are changed, one block of code before the override, and one part where I've defined max angle change in the file.

Sorry to hit and run, but about to go in to work in a few more minutes and then really won't be back for weeks, so I can't participate in further discussion or feedback for a long while. Hopefully the above makes clear my reasons on the firstmate/doctor and wind issues, and you guys can come to whatever decisions seems sensible. :)
 
- I think Grey Roger is referrig to dramatic shifts in the rare eastern winds, which is intentional, in particular, if the wind is blowing to the E, the next shift will likely be large. Generally not 180 degrees (never saw that once in testing and recording some 30 wind shifts, after I reduced the angle at Skyworm's suggestion), but you could see SE winds shifting to NE winds, or E winds shifting back to pointing in some W direction, basically with winds blowing east 90 degrees or a bit more of shift is not too uncommon, though 90% of wind changes will be much smaller.
Is there not still code in place to limit the number of degrees for a single shift?
 
That functionality is still there, but base angle changes mean something different from the conversion.

Conceptually, it can be understood like this: if all wind changes were equally small whether blowing west or east, then a western trend would never let a wind blowing east develop. And we want occasional if fleeting winds blowing east.

But I'd better explain in full, since I'm leaving and someone else might want to tinker with this while I'm gone (anyone is welcome to make any changes deemed approrpiate of course, please, any changes or improvements are welcome). There is a mathematical difficulty here. Ideally, if wind could slightly shift much more frequently, but testing of frequent shifts indicated a performance drop.

How wind works:

1) every hour, a random number is rolled between 0 and x, to determine how large of an angle the wind shift should be.

2) x used to be defined in internal settings, but I've now taken direct control of it in weather generation so we can calibrate it consistently during testing.

3) (here is where my mod comes in): I translate whatever angle is generated there with a function that also has 0 to 2PI as its range, but is weighted towards the west, like the first line below, which does a nonlinear transformation of the angle, condensing things to the west:

fWindA = (((fWindA-PI)^3)/(PI)^2 + PI);
if(fWindA >= 0.5 * PI) {fWindA = fWindA - 0.5 * PI}
else{fWindA = (2*PI + fWindA - 0.5 * PI) }

4) now we need to make the magnitude of base wind changes larger, because we are bunching up and reducing changes in the resulting winds blowing west, and we also need the wind to sometimes be able to overcome the trend and produce a wind blowing east, since those do happen sometimes in the Caribbean

All of that has the following goals:

A) mostly winds blowing west, that are pretty stable and have similar wind changes to before

B) but the possibility of occasional somewhat sudden winds that blow east, that are unstable and short lived (usually won't last more than an hour or two)

C) the chances of each wind direction roughly mirroring real world Caribbean data

So the thing is, a max angle change means something very different in the west or the east, because the formula converts the initial 0 to 2PI to a new 0 to 2PI as a continious function, but concentrates values in the west. Hence, western angle changes will be smaller (them being condensed by the function), and eastern can be larger (because the function spreads them out). If you plug a few values into the formula the effect will be obvious.

It is also intentional, in the sense that the way POTC winds work, infrequent changes of wind, you can't have both a strong western trend and occasional fleeting eastern winds without some jump, because it doesn't plan the wind changes out more than one wind change in advance.

So increasing max angle change from 0.5 to 2 was needed to allow any possibility of winds blowing east, and it also doesn't mean increasing average angle changes--those are similar to before, because any angle changes to the west are condensed to be much smaller than the base angle.

In other words, on average wind changes as similar amount as before, but thst is in the form of smaller wind changes for winds blowing west and large wind changes for winds blowing east. I personally consider the temporary and unstable winds blowing east a feature--I would expect based on the data any eastern blowing wind to be a temporary and unstable thing. But if a toggle is needed, it should be easy to make. :)
 
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@Pieter Boelen And off to work I go now--hopefully the above explanations are useful in coming to decisions without me regarding these issues. I hope you and everyone else has a wonderful couple of weeks! :)
 
It is not realistic for the first mate to prevent damage to either hull or crew, the reason being he has no idea where the cannonball is about to strike and can not order crew away from that point. The surgeon, on the other hand, can patch up relatively minor injuries and put crew back into action right away - he hasn't prevented the injury but he's prevented it from having any effect on the ship's fighting ability. If crew damage and ship damage are indeed separated into different perks then it would be the carpenter who would get the ship damage ones - again, he can't actually prevent the damage from happening but he can do jury-rig repairs, shoring up, etc. and again prevent the damage from having as much effect. It is the chief carpenter, not the first mate, who organises damage control teams.

So the first mate getting either the current combined perk for damage reduction, or proposed perks for either damage reduction or crew loss reduction, is not realistic. Keeping the current perks with the surgeon, or handing them to the carpenter, is more realistic. It doesn't help gameplay but then neither does the system currently in the 23rd September version, as I've already found.
 
The surgeon, on the other hand, can patch up relatively minor injuries and put crew back into action right away - he hasn't prevented the injury but he's prevented it from having any effect on the ship's fighting ability.
Technically that is being handled at midnight specifically by the doctor.
But indeed that doesn't affect anything in mid-battle.

I think @Tingyun's main issue is that the First Mate doesn't seem to have any substantial use.
Do you have any suggestions to rectify that without giving him the Doctor perk contributions?
 
He's supposed to be your second in command, so give him a bit of everything. True, once you have all the officers then that becomes redundant, but he can be a useful jack-of-all-trades until you have collected the whole set. Giving him "Troopers" makes sense - in reality he'd probably be the one commanding the raiding party, though that wouldn't make for good gameplay, but he's certainly capable of organising the men who will join you. Maybe allow him the "Cooking", "High Stakes" and/or smuggling perks - if he doesn't have enough work with the jack-of-all-trades perks then he can do some of these in his spare time, leaving the other officers to focus on their main job perks. Or leave him relatively weak in perks but give him a broader range of contributing skills, since he's your deputy and in theory capable of taking over any of your work if you're out of action or away from the ship, or assisting you when you are present.
 
@Pieter Boelen no time to add much, but since you tagged me:

Jack of all trades= useless officer. That is a result of how POTC skill contributions work, and the fact that it is easy to fill out your officer roster. Noone is going to wait to get a bosun, a quatermaster, etc, and let the firstmate fill their roles, for any appreciable amount of time.

Besides, do we really want a first mate only useful on tiny ships at beginning of game, and useless on larger ships? Seems opposite.

One's suggested above, Smuggling, cooking, high stakes do not fit the role of a firstmate well. Closest is cooking, but one perk like that won't make a difference. Many players never even smuggle, first mates shouldn't be only needed by smugglers.

I think defense perks make sense, I think firstmates could be seen as organizing the men better and training them better thus reducing the effective result of enemy fire. If men know where to be, then less needless casaulties, and damage can be handled better. Makes more sense to me than the doctor, who should be below decks and not affect the hull at all. At any rate gameplay seems the most important, and by transfering the perks both Doctor and Firstmate would have a useful niche to play and be desired by the player. Not sure how that could be not conisdered as a positive contribution to gameplay--now both roles are useful.

The above is all the thoughts I have to offer on this, just didn't want to leave a tag of me unheeded, I'll turn off email notifications so I'm not tempted to sneak away from work again. Bye everyone. :)
 
Well personally I never was a fan of removing the defence perks from the doctor. As I see we've got some more people here who don't like the change made there, for now I've reverted it in this zip:
Mod Release - Levis' Stuff [Sept 27] | PiratesAhoy!

Doesn't mean its bad perse but I would like to think about it a bit more first.
 
So @Grey Roger download that zip and do F11 and it should be back again. please let me know what you think of the perks for the first mate.
 
Doesn't mean its bad perse but I would like to think about it a bit more first.
Indeed thinking about it and going back and forth a bit should be quite fine.

I reckon both @Grey Roger and @Tingyun have a valid point, so I wonder what solution might be thought of that addresses them both.
Surely that must be possible! After all, real life manages to give both officers a purpose too. ;)
 
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