Multiple Cannon Types

[JohnHamm]

Any one have any ideas on how it may be possible to get multiple cannon types on one ship?

 

[Pieter Boelen]

That really is NOT an easy one. We've thought about it for PotC, but never came up with any good ideas on how to do it.
Maybe now that we've got the CoAS source code we do have some options, but it'd be a long-term goal at best.

 

[Iron Roger Flint]

I bet it would require too much effort editing ALL ship models and ship init entries, BUT my thoughts about this (sorry if it does not make any sence to you , but modellers should understand this):

Changing the groups of cannon locators to something like left1, left2, right3,... (number indicates the deck level) to tell on which deck cannons are mounted. There are now four groups (left, right, bow, stern), but no way to tell if the cannon is mounted on lower deck or upper deck.
And it would still require some coding on top of that so engine would understand the new grouping and to make it possible to mount different caliber guns on each deck . So it would indeed be a long term goal, just like Pieter said.

Or are you asking for the ability to mount 24lbs cannons on the right and 18lbs culverins on the left side? This should be much easier, but unfortunately not realistic :ng

 

[Pieter Boelen]

There's different things that could be understood by "carrying multiple calibres of cannons":

1. Gameplay-wise carrying of multiple cannon types
- Set the type of cannon through a menu
- Have the game use the correct cannon type for the balls' trajectory and damage values
- Have the weight of the cannons and their placement take effect on draft and stability. For example, carrying heavy cannons on the upper decks might give the ship a danger of capsizing (think the Wasa incident).
- Possibility to fire only the cannons of a certain type. For example, you'd use long-range low-damage cannons when an enemy is far away, but when the enemy is close, you might want to not use those cannons anymore because they do low damage and would only waste powder and shot.

2. The visual representation thereof
- All visual cannon models would need to be removed from all ship models and replaced with locators (BIG JOB!)
- Calibre-correct cannon models should then be placed on these locators through code (probably requires source code modification)
- Possibly we'd need several sets of cannon types for iron cannons and bronze cannons

As the above indicates, a simple thought as having multiple cannon types on a single ship would end up in a really big project to realize in a complete, sensible and working form. So before we even think of doing this for real, we need to seriously consider if it's worth it!

 

[Pieter Boelen]

As far as I'm concerned, I don't quite see how this modification would add much for gameplay.
It'd be historically accurate, of course, but deciding which gun goes where would require:
a. Historical/practical insight that probably most "regular" players wouldn't have
(though we could have the system addition to the present, so they wouldn't need to deal with it)
b. A lot of clicking through menu's. And again every time you or your companions get a new ship
c. Especially when the ability would be added to also fire only certain cannons while in battle,
you'd also need to do quite a lot of clicking or button-pressing in battle to switch between the cannons you want to use

This idea also makes me think of something else in a similar vain that I could see having additional gameplay value,
but would be subject to the same limitations as above:
What if you could load some cannons with a certain shot type and other cannons with a different shot type.
Why not have some cannons fire chainshot into the enemy's rigging, while the remaining cannons fire grapeshot into their crew.
Or why not fire grapeshot into an enemy close to you on the port side, while firing chainshot to an enemy far away on your starboard side.

It'd make sense to me that such things were done in real life, but how would you operate such a system well in a computer game?
After all, the above would require either menu-based clicking or assigning of hotkeys to groups or cannons and shot types.
In a game you're the only person having to deal with that in addition to actually "firing when your guns bear",
the manoeuvring of the ship and the setting of sails, not to mention the assignment of crewmembers and dealing with all sorts.

 

[Pieter Boelen]

Another thing that would also be realistic would be the ability to set/lower sails seperate
instead of in groups of "no/battle/full" sails and having the ship handle appropriate.
This would require a menu to set/lower these sails, along with hydrodynamic and aerodynamic computing
on how the ship should handle in each possible condition.

Additionally, all the above would also need to be handled sensibly by AI ships.
After all, if you as player have the ability to make use of it and take whatever advantage from it that you can,
all other ships at sea should be able to do so as well, otherwise it wouldn't be fair.

This would bring with it a complete new challenge because this would require the AI to:
1. Have historical sensibilities coded in
2. React and respond sensibly to all hydrodynamic, aerodynamic and other effects
3. Use common sense
4. Make tactical use of all available means
5. Reconsider tactics if situation changes
6. Do all the above for all ships at sea and not just one
7. Do all the above without using too much computing power, so the game remains running smoothly

In short, what I'm trying to say is that things become VERY complicated VERY quickly!

 

[jean]

... mount 24lbs cannons on the right and 18lbs culverins on the left side? This should be much easier, but unfortunately not realistic :ng

You're right, then you can try to mount lower caliber in front and back of a ship, it would be more realistic but I think it's a big job too.

 

[Captain Maggee]

It would indeed get very complicated very quickly

For realism it would add a lot to the game but I do think this will be a very long term project

As for gameplay as Pieter said it really doesnt add that much, and it would require a lot of menu clicking
Also if we choose to have it only on realism it would be a lot of effort for maybe not much enjoyment

 

[Pieter Boelen]

I'm just hyjacking this thread for some blatant request for help that might be mutually advantageous.
Remember that I was saying something about capsizing above? Well, I've been experimenting with that!
See here for the PotC code; it can probably be easily adapted into CoAS as well:
http://forum.piratesahoy.net//topic/16144-capsizing-ships/
However, I need some good ideas on the formula that triggers the capsizing. Right now, it's overkill.

 

[DoubleRumRation]

I have some ideas about cannons for this game. Multiple cannon types would be wonderfull and a very pleasant experience for people in love with the age of sail.
The problem of coding it i think is not too complicated. Leaving out the graphic representation of several gun groups which could as simple as a row of leds for every one,
(maybe "green-->maned and loaded", "yellow--> maned and loading", "red--> canon disabled", "grey--> canon unmaned").

It could be handled something like 1-2-3-4 left gun groups, 5-6-7-8 right gun groups, 9-0 bow-stern groups. Not too much menu clicking if the interface is
redesigned and we could select a target, a gun group, an ammunition type and FIRE.

My proposition is to make a document for the comunity, a gun database. I think the last gun modification and the vanilla simulation are taking wrong base points. Culverins aren't cannon versions with a slightly better range and less damage capability. See this link My link

It's the same case as english did later with carronades, cheaper and lighter cannon versions for specific situations. So there should be 3 main types:
long cannons (culverins), proper cannons and short cannons (pedreros-carronades-smashers).
Long cannons have long and reinforced tubes. They are expensive and very heavy, slow to reload and dificult to handle but they have a long effective range.
Short cannons have short tubes and use much less metal. They are cheap, light and easy to reload and handle. Poor range but as devastating at close range
as more reinforced guns.
Cannons are an intermediate point between those 2, useful at medium and close range.

So a big ship could have long 8 or 12 pounders as bow and stern chasers, a main battery of 18 or 24 pounder cannons, and 1 or 2 decks of 32 pounder carronades.
And even a 4 group, the upper deck lighter guns to be used in boarding.

Which takes me to the point you were talking about: capsizing. Instead of limiting the max caliber a ship can mount, there should be a weight limit for armament.
Adding the weight of all mounted guns, the more it surpasses max weight allowed, the more likely is capsizing.

Sorry if i overextended a bit, it's that feeling when one thinks what this game could be. Just dreaming

. But if someone does like my ideas i have tons