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Included in Build Different Shipyard Sale Prices for Naval Officers/Privateers

Discussion in 'Features Archive' started by Levis, Jul 16, 2015.

  1. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    When you capture a ship now when playing as professional navy how much (of the normal sellprice) do you get when selling it to the shipyard?
     
  2. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    Same as for non navy characters, I imagine. :shrug
     
  3. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    Well historically the captain got 25% of the price money. The rest was for the navy. Seeing as a lot is payed for you we could change this maybe so you won't get to rich to soon....
     
  4. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    That makes sense. Privateers and naval captains would have disposed of their prize ships the same way, typically through an admiralty court, then got a share of the proceeds.
     
  5. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    @Grey Roger yes "a share", not the full price. I was thinking about just adding a check to the getSellPrice function for the shipyard interface to see if you are navy, if so the sellprice is divided by for example 4 (probably times a variable which can be set to a percentage so it can be tweaked or even changed if you promote).
     
  6. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    I believe there is also a dependecy on your commerce skills for the shipyard. this should be disabled for navy characters cause it wont matter. also commerce perks shouldn't matter here.
    I could change that very easy ...
     
  7. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    I like your thinking. So let me get this straight:

    - Navy Officer (character with .professionalnavy attribute): Sale price divided by 4(?) and commerce skill doesn't affect shipyard costs in a shipyard of your own nation
    (This would be similar to the a navy player crimping crew for free but only at towns of their own nation)

    - Privateer (character with Letter of Marque from any nation but NOT pirate): Sale price divided by 4(?) at shipyards of the nations you have a LoM from.
    Possibly disable selling ships at shipyards of other nations altogether?

    That certainly would make playing as a pirate more lucrative, because you get to keep 100% of the sale price and not only 25%.
    Multiple LoMs would allow you to sell at multiple shipyards. But having a LoM would have quite a disadvantage too because you get to keep less money.

    Does that sound about right?

    As an added note for future development: We should also one day try to add the historical advantage of having a LoM in that you are actually allowed to attack ships.
    That also distinguishes again more clearly from merchant characters, but I'm not yet sure of a simple way of handling that.
     
  8. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    Sounds good.
    I got an even better idea.
    Reward nation points (or whatever gouverns your promotions) for each X amount of money the ship costs.
    So If you have a LoM and you turn in a Class 1 ship you captured you get 25% of the money but a really large boost to the nation points so you can promote again.

    Which function is used for rewarding these points again?
     
  9. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    That would certainly make sense. Then you also get that boost only with the nation that you sold the ship to.
    I can't remember by the top of my head which function does that. Search the main game folder for "points".
    There is probably something related in PROGRAM\Characters\CharacterUtilite.c or PROGRAM\NATIONS\nations.c .

    We may also want to modify when you actually get points at sea and for which nation. At the moment I am not at all sure what that does.
    Perhaps it shouldn't add points at all for any ship you capture at sea, since you get those points later when selling.
    Maybe also ONLY add points for selling ships that you captured; I think there is already a flag and effect for that in the shipyard code, so that should not be too hard.

    For ships that you sink, perhaps add points to your ServedNation only instead of to all nations that are hostile to the ship you just sank (I think that is what it does, but again... not sure).
    If your ServedNation is PERSONAL_NATION (because you started like that or have multiple LoMs), then you don't get points at all.
    So that adds a disadvantage to having multiple LoMs, which would make sense to me.

    Additionally, for ships that you sink without having a LoM, perhaps add some extra points with the pirates or something like that.
     
  10. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    I can fix the shipyard part.
    The sea part I can look into it sounds doable too.
    I'd say:
    With LOM:
    If you capture a ship you dont get points untill you sell it in the shipyard. then it adds points to the nation where you sell it.
    If you sink a ship of a hostile country you get no points.
    If you sink pirates you get points for all countries your serving (but not many)

    With navy:
    If you capture a ship and sell it to your serving nation you get points
    If you sink a ship hostile to your country you get points
    If you sink pirates you get more points to your serving nation.

    It's not possible to get a LoM when being proffesional navy right?
     
  11. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    You already get only 1 point for a pirate ship and a number depending on the size of the ship for the other nations.
    Why would you not get points for sinking ships? Each ship down is one less ship to pester your served nation.

    If you don't have a LoM, you cannot be promoted so navy officers DO have a LoM but you shouldn't notice.
    However, we found a bug that occasionally for unknown reason they lose their LoM and that breaks the functionality.
    Exception is Hornblower who deliberately starts as navy officer WITHOUT a LoM so that he cannot be promoted through regular play and only as dictated by the story.
     
  12. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    I really don't like where this is going.

    Points should be scored regardless of whether you sink or capture an enemy ship. The points are for removing an asset from the enemy. The bonus for capturing it is that you get prize money, which would be the same for navy as for privateer as it would be handled the same way - the ship would be disposed of by the government and you would get a share of the proceeds. Pirates are enemies and count the same way. The reason you won't score as highly for defeating a pirate is that they tend to use smaller ships; if you confine your attention to enemy nations' sloops and brigs then you won't score much either, compared to if you take on a frigate.

    You should not score points for selling a ship. You already got the points for capturing it. What you get for selling a ship is money! Note that in reality, you would put a prize crew aboard the ship under command of one of your officers and send it off to a friendly shipyard while you continued your cruise. The game can't handle dividing the fleet like that, so selling the ship at the next port regardless of nation is one way of achieving a similar goal. (Note that if you are not allowed to sell ships except at your own shipyards, privateers in "Early Explorers" are going to be stuffed.)

    Pirates should not keep 100% of the price. The shipyard will be taking its cut in exchange for disposing of a stolen ship. But unlike with an admiralty court, you can haggle here, so commerce skill and perks should apply. Maybe start with a base rate of less than the 25% that navy and privateer get, but high skill and full perks will raise it to more than 25%.
     
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  13. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    Indeed that is probably simpler; no points from the selling ships then, since you already got them.

    I suggested before adding shipyard functionality to the Emissaries; that might be an option here?
    Alternatively, since we're skipping nation points from selling ships anyway, indeed just allow it at ALL shipyards and pretend that simulates you sending the ships towards your own nation.

    At the moment ALL shipyards already give you substantially less money based on how you got the ship.
    If you stole her, you get the least of all. So that functionality shouldn't need to be added, because it is already there.

    So simplest solution:
    - Characters with .professionalnavy AND/OR a LoM get only 25% of the proceeds of selling a ship, BUT commerce skills are removed from the equation
    - Any other characters remain unchanged, so stolen ships yield less money and commerce skills play a role
    - Pirate characters: No need to distinguish here, is there?

    This will make it harder to make money when you have a LOM or are in the navy, which is fine of course.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    To offset this disadvantage, the way nations perceive your actions upon firing on a ship/capturing a ship/sinking a ship should probably be completely rewritten so that:

    - Characters with .professionalnavy AND/OR a LoM gain points as before, but only with their ServedNation AND all other nations that they have a LoM from
    NOTE: This does NOT add a disadvantage to having multiple LoMs. Should there be? If so, then in what way?
    - Any other character does NOT gain positive relation points at all as they aren't licensed to commit acts of war, but DO gain negative points with the nation you fought with
    - Pirate characters: Again no need to distinguish here. If you haven't officially joined them (e.g. no fake "LoM"), you gain no points with them but DO gain negative points with the other nations.


    Extra things to figure out:
    - Prevent all merchant ships from firing on their enemies, unless they are actively being attacked.
    For AI attackers, this information should be available. For player attackers, this should be based on who fires the first shot.
    Needs to be figured out how to make this work in the game; probably wouldn't be that simple.
    - Figure out how enemy navy ships should deal with enemy nation players who do not have a LoM and aren't a pirate (e.g. honest merchant folk).
    This should probably be OK, but how to establish nation relations? Would the player gain negative relation points for defending him/herself?
     
  14. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    Maybe reduce the points scored if you have multiple LoM's? A single LoM is a way of patriotically serving your nation without submitting to the full rigour of navy discipline. Multiple LoM's are just a legal cover for piracy. The governor is still happy for you to attack ships belonging to his enemy but isn't as friendly to you as if you were dedicated to serving his nation.

    Also, lose your LoM and be branded a traitor if you attack a ship belonging to the nation which issued the LoM or any of its allies. That makes alliance distinctive from neutrality and also means anyone with multiple LoM's had better keep an eye on international relations, especially if they're variable. You're working for both Britain and Holland, Britain is at war with both Spain and France, Holland is at war with Spain but neutral to France, so you're OK to attack Spanish ships (gets you points from Britain and Holland) and French ships (only gets you points from Britain, Holland doesn't care). Holland allies with France - now if you sink or capture a French ship, Britain is happy but Holland strips you of your LoM. Problem: with multiple LoM's, your relations aren't tied to a nation's, so France still hates you and its warships will attack you. You're OK if you fire back and either knock down the French ship's mast so you can run away, or it surrenders and you leave it alone. You're only penalised for sinking or boarding it.

    If a ship from an enemy navy attacks you, you should be allowed to defend yourself. Merchants just aren't allowed to initiate combat.

    And someone somewhere is going to have to explain the details of international law to novice players! Governors can probably tell you what you can and can't do when you buy your LoM, the merchants' guild can explain it to you when you buy your merchant's licence, naval officers will probably need a briefing from the officer who greets them at the start of the game.
     
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  15. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    Very good points @Grey Roger!

    This might get quite complicated pretty quickly, but it is definitely something I would like to see working properly.
    It'll definitely make the whole game more real with actions having consequences and gameplay elements actually getting more meaning than they do now.

    Divide the number of points over the number of LoMs and add the resulting fraction equally to each nation? Does make sense.

    That would definitely be VERY nice as well! At the moment neutral and allied doesn't seem to make a difference which is STUPID! :whipa
     
  16. Grey Roger

    Grey Roger Sea Dog Staff Member Storm Modder

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    I'm not sure I'd go as far as that. Otherwise there's no point in getting multiple LoM's. You'd be as well to rise to maximum rank with one nation, get as much land as possible from doing so, then resign your commission (which, as I understand it, doesn't take away your land the way having your LoM stripped does), and do the same for another nation. That way you don't need to worry so much about international relations. Maybe try something like points * (1 - LoMs/10), only applied if LoMs > 1, so that:
    2 -> points * 0.8; 3 -> points * 0.7; 4 -> points * 0.6; 5 -> points * 0.5; 6 -> points * 0.4
    By the time you have 5 LoM's or more, about the only thing you can attack is pirates, which won't earn you many points anyway as they're only small ships. 4 LoM's is probably only viable in "Revolutions" - get them from France, Spain, Holland and America, then attack British ships. 3 LoM's is good in "Golden Age" or "Colonial Powers" - get them from Britain, Holland and Portugal, then both France and Spain are targets.

    The main risk of getting multiple LoM's should be that the more you get, the fewer viable targets you have because whoever you attack is likely to be someone's ally. A fourth LoM in "Golden Age" would have to come from Spain or France, at which point both become invalid targets because they're allied, so attacking one will invalidate the LoM from the other, and attacking anyone else will invalidate the British, Dutch and Portuguese LoM's.
     
  17. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    Would be fine by me! :yes

    I should also mention that these changes are things I really DO want to see in the game and I wouldn't at all object to having it in Beta 3.5 for testing purposes if at all possible.
    Definitely one of the larger changes that would change the game world quite substantially.
     
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  18. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    Could someone make a new topic for this or make a summary of what we want to include in B14 and what is for B15
     
  19. Pieter Boelen

    Pieter Boelen (Not So) Old Seadog Staff Member Administrator Storm Modder Hearts of Oak Donator

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    See post 272 above. I would definitely think the shipyard pricing can be done for Beta 3.5 .

    Having nation points work in a more advanced way may be left until after I managed to sort out the False Flag code.
    Hopefully that will also not take too much longer as it is a good feature that I would want to be fully operational.

    Anything related to first shot fired or AI behaviour might be able to wait until after Beta 3.5 and possibly until Build 15.
    Depends on how well the basics can be made to work and how hard it would be too expand on that.
     
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  20. Levis

    Levis Find(Rum) = false; Staff Member Programmer Creative Support Storm Modder

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    Made the changes to the shipyard here:
    http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/levis-stuff-v-5-0.25316/

    You will notice the shipprices are still high. This is because you get a lot of money for the cannons because of this:
    Code:
    #define SHIPYARD_CANNON_SELL_MULT        0.75    // FLOAT - multiplier to sell price of cannon
    
    I sugest setting this to 0.5 or even a bit lower.
     
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